How much is America going to take?

[Stew]

Don't let yourself be manipulated by demagogues trying to whip you up to act out of your biases and impulses rather than the law and your brain. That's all that's going on in this matter.

A Salvation Army community center with a chapel inside and a Muslim-based community center with a mosque inside must be treated one-and-the-same under the law.

Or, who here really wants to live in a country where the authorities are free to select out one religion and deny them the same rights afforded to another religion?

[bamabassman]

<<<< thinking of opening a BAMA-Q next door. BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[bamabassman]

seriously though, they have a RIGHT to have a mosque. emotions run high on matters like this. TRUE muslims aren't terriosts i don't think. i ain't gonna get into this futher than this statement. and wtl is right, the majority of folks over there don't know OR care about what kind of building is built in new york city. they see our soldiers there with guns and listen to their clerics tell them we shouldn't be there PERIOD. so the idiots get box cutters....................

[keithdog]

Just wanted to say a couple things and then I'll give it a rest, lol. I know I can get pretty heated up when it comes to subjects such as this one, but I'm just grateful that we live in a country where we can agree to disagree. Discussions like this one here tonight are very healthy for us as Americans as it gets us all thinking, and then perhaps questioning ourselves, and looking at things from anothers point of view. Can the mosque be stopped legally, I don't know. Cities regulate where buisnesses can locate all the time, and permits can be turned down. But a church may be a different animal. Should the mosque be allowed? I for one don't think a church of any kind should be allowed there. Religions from all walks of life could be represented there in some way. I doubt a church would be allowed in a National Park. Perhaps the site could be designated in some way similarly. But weirdly enough I rather enjoyed tonights posts, and am happy to argue with anyone in here, and then shake your hand, pat ya on the back and still call you friend. We can't always agree on issues, but being able to peacfully express our opinions is what makes this country great.

[Bubba_Bruiser]

Why did they not mention that one of the landmarks was a Greek Orthodox Church? They will build a mosque, but they won't let the Christian based people build there church back? Hmmmm, interesting.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by WTL

Lets act in accordance with our pedigree.

I agree with this, but what do you think our pedigree is? This country was not built and made great with the same way of thinking that it is ran by today. This country was built on a hardass attitude by which we let nobody walk on us and we were always willing to stand up for our beliefs even if they were unpopular. That is what I consider our pedigree to be and there is no way that allowing this slap in the face to all americans especially those to parished in the attacks of 9-11 could possibly be considered our pedigree.

WTL you made some good points but I don't really agree with all of them. Your were right when you said that not all muslims are bad people, but why can't the "good ones" step up and say that it is in bad taste for them to build this thing on ground zero. They know what they are doing and they know how disrespectful that is, they just don't care and we are rolling over and playing dead and allowing them to slap us in the face by building it there. There is a lot of land for sale and there is no other reason why this mosque would be built right there other than to disrespect the United States.

Don't take this as me trying to argue with you, I just wanted to say my peace on these points that I don't agree with.

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by WTL

Or we could open a barbque pork restaurant directly west and let the wind carry the delicious smell of roast pig over.

Now you're thinking!

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by Bubba_Bruiser

Why did they not mention that one of the landmarks was a Greek Orthodox Church? They will build a mosque, but they won't let the Christian based people build there church back? Hmmmm, interesting.

It is interesting isn't it?

[Stew]

Originally Posted by keithdog

I doubt a church would be allowed in a National Park.

In point of fact, they've been allowed for decades, at the very least.

Some examples:

Hot Springs Baptist Church is located within Hot Springs National Park, Arkansas http://www.eventective.com/USA/Arkan...st-Church.html

On town land, there must be equal access by law.

In Eureka Springs, Arkansas, where I lived nearby for years, the town has allowed Christian groups to set up a veritable Meca. Tourists abound.

You'll find the world's largest statue of Jesus http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/17113

Chapels are there and are bustling http://www.thorncrown.com/

I attended a teaching and concert by Catholic monk and musician John Michael Talbot held on public land.

A Passion Play has performed almost daily for the past 40 plus years http://www.greatpassionplay.com/

Daily exhibitions exist at the park, such as The Potter, where the actor teaches uses traditional pottery methods while teacing about how Christ can form people for His will even when things have seemed to go wrong.

Again, been there, seen that.

Local government have allowed this for the Christian religion. And I for one am glad.

But the hard fact is that if a Muslim or Buddhist or some other group asserted the same rights, they'd have to be allowed.

Why?

Because that's America, and we are'nt allowed to pick and choose among those with rights to freedom.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by keithdog

First of all, people from all over the world made up the 3000plus victoms from 9-11, not just americans. Secondly, this was not the first time we have been attacked. The muslim militants have been attacking the US and our allies for over 3 decades now. Thousands of victoms lives have been claimed from over 30 years of Islamic attacks. And you tell me they are not worthy of our concern??? How many times do we have to be attacked and killed before we decide to respond? How many innocent victoms need to die before we compare them to Nazi Germany? Yes, our cost has been high. But to do nothing would be suicide. The mosque in NY may seem trivial to those who did not suffer from the 9-11 attack. But tell that to the families and friends of those who lost loved ones that day. And those 20 something kids and their idiot leaders you mention are there whether we like it or not. They can't simply be ignored while they continue to bomb planes, hotels, weddings, funerals and so on. I remember a quote that went something like this. Evil men will succeed when good men do nothing. There is a lot of truth to that. And we didn't react to 9-11 JUST because of pride. We also reacted because if we didn't there would be more 9-11's in the future. Our very lives are at stake. They arn't just camel riding fools. They fly jet airliners and operate internationally. And they have no interrest in being friends with us or forging a new understanding. They want us, our allies and Isreal to be destryed in order to create an Islamic world. That is their motive. And those of us who stand in their way must be eliminated. The threat won't just disapear if we live our lives and simply mind our own buisness. We did that for a long time and the attacks kept comming, over and over again. There comes a time when enough is enough. I'm sure Hitler would have LOVED for the US and Britain to have minded our own buisnesses.

What we have to do is think logically. Just because we have been attacked a few times by extremists does not mean we have to fight huge, cumbersome wars for murky goals almost unrelated to the original events.

In fact, it has been argued that these type wars and interventions are a primary motive for islamic militants in the first place. Count how many times we have been attacked since 1947 and 1953...there were two events that triggered most of the anxiety they feel towards America. Before the creation of Israel and the intervention in Iran, we didn't have many enemies over there. In fact, we fought on the same side during WWI.

They dont just want to install sharia law, that is only a percentage of them. Many of the enemy combatants are created when they see the negative effects that foreign occupation has on a country - loss of life of family, destroyed homes, loss of opportunity and the succeeding wave of anger that follows all of that tends to swallow up the youth into fighting.

It is our mistake in America that we have somehow developed a one dimensional picture of who we are fighting and why. Its not really because we are free that they hate us. It is because our freedom has led to our power, and our influence, direct and otherwise has altered how they think their world should be.

Now none of this excuses terrorism, and some things we must continue to do such as recognize the state of Israel, but do we really need bases all over the middle east? Do we really need to concern ourselves with afghanistan when CIA reports suggested less than 100 members of al qaeda there recently? How can we fight this smart, and safe, and with a minimal impact to both American troops and minimal chance of creating more goons?

I think George Will got it right, here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...083102912.html

We cannot compare these people to Hitler. It is just a terrible comparison, they have nothing like the resources that Germany had, and Germany supplemented those several times by direct military conquest - without Germany's quick moves into Checkloslovakia they would not have been near the power - they benefited greatly from Check tanks and munitions. And even if we do want to compare these people to Hitler, remember, Hitler was created by an unnecessary war - WWI, without that, and the terms that were placed upon the Wiemar Republic, idiots like Hitler don't come into power. Kinda like how Ahmadinejad would not have come to power had we not been occupying Iraq.

The less war and intervention we make, the safer things will be. We still have the best military in the world 3 times over. We have to calm down and not bulldog everything we might not like.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

I agree with this, but what do you think our pedigree is? This country was not built and made great with the same way of thinking that it is ran by today. This country was built on a hardass attitude by which we let nobody walk on us and we were always willing to stand up for our beliefs even if they were unpopular. That is what I consider our pedigree to be and there is no way that allowing this slap in the face to all americans especially those to parished in the attacks of 9-11 could possibly be considered our pedigree.

WTL you made some good points but I don't really agree with all of them. Your were right when you said that not all muslims are bad people, but why can't the "good ones" step up and say that it is in bad taste for them to build this thing on ground zero. They know what they are doing and they know how disrespectful that is, they just don't care and we are rolling over and playing dead and allowing them to slap us in the face by building it there. There is a lot of land for sale and there is no other reason why this mosque would be built right there other than to disrespect the United States.

Don't take this as me trying to argue with you, I just wanted to say my peace on these points that I don't agree with.

We can still be hardasses without crying for the government and politicians to save us from this. My suggestion of a BBQ restaurant was not totally in jest. If somebody says something you don't like, or does something you find disrespectful, we don't have to run to the teacher, we can deal with it ourselves.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by WTL

We can still be hardasses without crying for the government and politicians to save us from this. My suggestion of a BBQ restaurant was not totally in jest. If somebody says something you don't like, or does something you find disrespectful, we don't have to run to the teacher, we can deal with it ourselves.

True but our government which is supposed to be looking our for our best interest should have shot this idea down at the begining. It's just another example of the governement not giving a damn about what America should stand for.

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

True but our government which is supposed to be looking our for our best interest should have shot this idea down at the begining. It's just another example of the governement not giving a damn about what America should stand for.

That's sort of my problem with this. There was a time when the powers that be would have found a way to make this go away in a non public manner. Whether or not you feel it is right, legally or morally, it isn't going to sit well with the majority of Americans, nor should it. We are still fighting Muslim extremists in the Middle East and they did still attack us.

It would be like a friendly Russian-American group wanting to open a bathhouse or vodka bar next to the Pentagon during the height of the cold war. Goofy example I know, but someone would have stepped up and not allowed it and we wouldn't have to have this conversation. Just because it can legally happen doesn't make it the right thing to do.

[cassidyta]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

True but our government which is supposed to be looking our for our best interest should have shot this idea down at the begining. It's just another example of the governement not giving a damn about what America should stand for.

That is a slippery slope that we can not afford to walk on. I for one don't want the Government stepping in on this one.
I don't believe that we will gain anything if our Government were to make it a law that a religion affiliated building can not be built on those grounds, regardless of religion.
Do I agree with putting the building there, no. But that doesn't mean I can agree with using the law to stop it.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by cassidyta

That is a slippery slope that we can not afford to walk on. I for one don't want the Government stepping in on this one.
I don't believe that we will gain anything if our Government were to make it a law that a religion affiliated building can not be built on those grounds, regardless of religion.
Do I agree with putting the building there, no. But that doesn't mean I can agree with using the law to stop it.

I agree with the way you said that.

I really dont think the government is competent to do much. That includes health care, that includes financial regulation, that includes knowing when to let someone build and when not to based on religious grounds, that includes fighting wars that are not in the immediate security interests of our country. In that regard I guess I am a total conservative.

[keithdog]

Ya know WTL, your the kind of guy I could enjoy a six pack with discussing all kinds of things. I might not totally agree but I'd enjoy the conversation, lol.

[MississippiBoy]

Originally Posted by keithdog

Ya know WTL, your the kind of guy I could enjoy a six pack with discussing all kinds of things. I might not totally agree but I'd enjoy the conversation, lol.

Careful, he might take that as an invitation...

[keithdog]

Thought I would mention something I heard today on the radio. They were discussing this very subject and it was mentioned that the leaders of this mosque who are in charge of the building project have announced they are planning 9-11-2011 as the day they will officially open the new building. Now if that is true, then I have no doubt this is being done with only evil intensions and as a way of insultting all of us. And if they do open on 9-11, I sure as hell don't want to be anywhere near that place on that day.

[1/4 stick]

Doesn’t our federal government already have enough control over our lives without giving them an open invitation to this one? Especially this administration. Let them get involved here and make their laws and legislation and in the coming years people will not be able to build a Christian church on their own property or property donated to them, because some atheists have said they are opposed to it. And once again we’ll be listening to bambam talking about, “I inherited the problem! It was Bushes fault! Wheya wheya wheya!!!”

But this could also open up things for the “Never waste a crises” people to tell you what you can and can’t do with your own property. And before long the feds will be taking property citing immanent domain based on rulings and laws passed because we didn’t want some rude, ill mannered, and inappropriately acting Muslims using their own property for a mosque. I think we really need to check out where the money to build came from thoroughly, and if it doesn’t show it came from terrorist organizations, let it slide.

Build some bbq joints, strip joints, and porn shops around them to stick it back in their eyes; but let the mosque slide. All actions have consequences, and letting the government get involved in this will have nothing but bad consequences down the road. This is just the opinion of a dumb, under educated redneck, I could be wrong.

But I doubt I am.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by keithdog

Thought I would mention something I heard today on the radio. They were discussing this very subject and it was mentioned that the leaders of this mosque who are in charge of the building project have announced they are planning 9-11-2011 as the day they will officially open the new building. Now if that is true, then I have no doubt this is being done with only evil intensions and as a way of insultting all of us. And if they do open on 9-11, I sure as hell don't want to be anywhere near that place on that day.

I've really enjoyed the chat as well. Always have had a lot of respect for you Keith.

If they open it on 9-11, I think we all as americans have ample justification to respond in kind. Such a provocation would absolutely require that a really stupid and futile gesture be done on somebody's part, and we are just the guys to do it.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by Ebbetsguy

Thnks for listeing to all veiwpoints, America has been divded up into red and blue states by the media. If we all stop and listen, most of us want the same things, and if we are willing to admit that both sides have good points and blend them together, instead of hating on each other, we may keep our place in History. With that I bow out, I still think Politics and Religion have done us more harm than good and I do believe in God, but not religion and will continue to pray that we can put policitics aside and take care of each otherI

I like your way of looking at things, Ebbetsguy! I also appreciate the fact that the members of this forum just engaged in a very well thought and provocative subject and did so without coming to out and out blows! Well Done to all of you! Before reading the whole thread, my position would have been mirror imaged to Kieth. I consider myself a hardcore Patriot and conservative and get extrememly PO'd when someone treads on my country (internally or externally). I am also a devout believer in God, but like Ebbetsguy I am not devout religious attendee in any particular denomination.
I came away from this thread with a different perspective. I see the points that were being made about letting the mosque exists now as something our forefathers intended. I think it's in poor taste, but I also think they will have to endure whatever new York dishes out (Who knows maybe a Bar B Que Pork diner is the next addition to the neighborhood, Americans can come up with some pretty danged clever tricks). I still believe we need to keep the Jihadist and Al Qaeda terrorist at bay over there, not here and hope that the current administration hasn't let our guard down too far, but having a mosque built where they want doesn't seem to matter as much to me now. Thanks, Guys! great conversation.