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12-20-11, 11:58 PM | #1 | |
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12-21-11, 11:05 AM | #2 |
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That is the Iranian perspective. The truth of the founding of Israel is much more complicated, and I see no definitive guilt for the situation resting on either the Jews or Muslims of Palestine.
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12-20-11, 05:55 PM | #3 |
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Discussion of politics, especially at the Federal level is a lose/lose situatuion. The entire system is FUBARed and nothing short of citizen revolt will resolve it. I'm NOT advocating violence, but a revolt in a voting sense to elect elect individuals or a POLITICAL PARTY with a platform and an agenda for change in HOW our govenment works, and that it works for the Country as a whole and not slanted left or right, but balanced.
As to peace and war - I should have been a phylosopher or something. MY thought: Peace only reigns when the thought of war is so abominalble that peace is the only option. The United States had the opportunity in 1945 and it slipped away. Had we been able to conatain nuclear poliferation, this Country is probably the only one on the planet that could be trusted as the only one having that type of weapon. Now our nuclear power only serves as a deterrent to the others, and some of them are crazy enough to not realize how dangerous having nuclear capability is. Last edited by bassboogieman; 12-20-11 at 06:06 PM. |
12-20-11, 08:30 PM | #4 |
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hahahaha.......now THIS is interesting fellas. truly what i think AMERICA, oops.....i mean, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is all about. TALKING it out and governing ourselves. DEBATE IS AN AWESUM THING. POINT.COUNTERPOINT.
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12-20-11, 09:15 PM | #5 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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No argument. I support most of his policies, not the man. I think 75 is too old unless you are a freak of nature. He is not. He is a freak of politics, but not nature. Quote:
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As for the 20s and 50s, your interpretation could be correct; OR, I could assert that we saw the delayed gains for 1916-17 and 1941(actually 29)-1945 finally come into reality. If war holds you back for a few years, and then ends, and the economy roars back - did it roar back because you engaged in war? Or stopped fighting? Chicken or the egg. Quote:
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Thats the point, isn't it? I don't think he will run as a 3rd party candidate, but yea, he is liberated from trying to come up with electable positions. Must be nice. And he is on the verge of winning Iowa doing it. Amazing. I think he has done more than any other GOP politician to strengthen the party, and the idiots in Washington don't even realize it. Go to a college campus and see what the political factions support. There, Paul is like Obama is at a union rally. And that is going to be the future of the GOP, albeit with some defections (Hillary was once a Goldwater girl, Greenspan was an Ayn Rand "accolyte") ------------- Now, what will you say the crux of your argument is? You haggle a bit here and there, and I try to correct it, but when we add it all up, what are you saying? That we can engage in almost constant war, and still remain safe?
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12-20-11, 09:16 PM | #6 |
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By the way, trying to keep track of such a post is difficult...lets figure out a better way to stick on certain points, cause damn....I spent more time figuring out the quote source code.
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12-20-11, 09:44 PM | #7 | ||
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I think the main topic should probably have stayed more about Ron Paul. I disagree with Paul on foreign policy. He is an idealist, a trait widely shared with young, fresh-faced, enthusiastic college kids. It is very easy to be an idealist when one has no skin in the game yet. I still have my ivory tower moments myself, so I can understand his appeal. No, we can not engage in almost constant war, and especially not when our domestic house in is such disarray. We should pick our wars more carefully, but engage in them more ferociously when we do. I would gladly let Iran and the rest of the Middle East alone, but for two things: oil and Jews. Big surprise. Since we're commited, we have to win. We can't abandon one, and I don't want to abandon the other. Ron Paul has as much as said Israel can take care of itself. Quote:
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12-20-11, 09:39 PM | #8 |
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Not to mention, everyone is assuming we could stop their nuke program. Its a secret nuke program. If we strike surgically, there is little guarantee we destroy all we need to. And if we engage in all out war, well the country does not have the will for that. Iran will be the toughest nation we fight since Japan. They are moving up a couple classes from the Vietnamese or Iraqis.
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12-20-11, 09:46 PM | #9 | |
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I agree they would be tough to defeat, but consider they have almost no oil refining capability. No gasoline...No jet fuel. That is why an Iran with a nuke is very dangerous. It will be their only bargaining chip.
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12-20-11, 09:55 PM | #10 |
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Oil is not a real reason to go to war with them. They sell it to us and will continue to do so unless we declare war. They value money more than religion. And we have enough oil that, should we be forced to choose, we should choose to drill rather than fight.
The Jews are strong and can take care of themselves. They are no different than South Korea. I don't think the non-interventionist plank is so idealistic. It is naive and idealistic to think you can subdue the world, and make everyone like you through force,. It is pragmatic to see that as impossible, and instead to decide to concentrate on domestic interests. Recasting it as otherwise shows how far astray we have gone. Remember, avoid entangling alliances.
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12-20-11, 10:13 PM | #11 | |
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Sidebar on Israel: If a Republican President ever officially abandoned Israel, would American Jews switch sides? Your last paragraph has some straw man embedded in it. I do not think force produces "like". I believe it only produces "won't bother again." But it has to be done effectively. With the eggshell walking our military is forced to endure anymore, I'm not sure we could clear out an OWS camp. Oh, I agree about avoiding entangling alliances. The irony is, people are always calling for coalitions. What are those, if not entangling alliances?
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12-20-11, 10:15 PM | #12 |
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Experience disproves this,. See the blowback theory. (concedes there was a bit of a strawman, but its besides the point)
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12-20-11, 10:25 PM | #13 | |||
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Sorry to digress further, but I think you made a point earlier about Hugo Black being an originalist? You know, I can see that, but I'm sure he was mostly interested in a "pre-3/5 of a man" kind of originalism. Quote:
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12-20-11, 10:13 PM | #14 |
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Anybody who wants to introduce democracy, ala the neoconservatives, are walking in the highly unsuccessful shoes of one Woodrow Wilson. THAT should give conservatives pause.
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12-20-11, 10:16 PM | #15 |
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Are you under the impression that the jews vote republican? Cause I'm not.
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12-20-11, 10:33 PM | #16 |
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Its crucial to understand the idea of blowback to understand Paul's foreign policy. Simply put, it is the idea that intervention creates negative externalities that would not have occurred but for that intervention.
Without understanding this point, its easy to see how you would think that Paul just wants us to go in the hole and pretend that the boogeyman doesn't exist. __________________________________________________ ________________ We actually don't dwell too much in studying the historical figures of the law. For instance, they will never ask you what Cardozo's legal philosophy was on a test. But I can recall from some independent reading that Black defined his originalism as being tempered by a HEAVY deference for the legislative branch. So, if Congress passes a law, his understanding of the Constitution was such that it almost required him to defer to their judgment. Kinda makes him a good pal of FDR.
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12-20-11, 10:46 PM | #17 |
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Okay, I understand the concept. I just hadn't heard the term. And it is 100% correct. But it's incomplete. For lack of a better word, there is also "blowforward." That would be externalities produced by inaction.
Take a look at Everson and see if you agree with my view. By my understanding the Supreme Court can not rule on matters not at hand. My reasoning says that the very fact that they ruled in favor of the plaintiff necessarily invalidates the other part of the opinion. It is a contradiction that offends my sensibilities greatly. The neocon stuff is great. I (perhaps too much) simplify it by defining them as Democrats who hang out with Republicans because they like to fight wars. Anyway, I will of course, continue to read about all of this. I'm sure there will be some more posts in the day to come. If I don't stop now, I'm going to wake up in the middle of the night with the urge to post some drivel.
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12-20-11, 10:41 PM | #18 | |
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Something interesting for you on neoconservatism, from wiki (so it must be true)
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12-20-11, 10:52 PM | #19 |
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OK, lets call a moratorium till tomorow, otherwise I will start dissecting preventative war, ahem, blowforward.
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12-20-11, 11:45 PM | #20 |
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It's funny watching two "conservatives" stroke each others egos, like there is some real debate going on.
Last edited by Dogmatic; 12-21-11 at 07:59 AM. |
12-21-11, 12:49 AM | #21 | |
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There...is that better? Does that qualify as "real debate?"
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12-21-11, 07:58 AM | #22 | |
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12-21-11, 11:01 AM | #23 |
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Actually dogmatic, you and me seemed to be in agreement till about 3 yesterday, when you disappeared from the thread. Now you re-emerge, claim that me and nofear agree (we dont), and claim that we somehow have acted as if we are the only ones with rational thought.
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12-21-11, 01:49 AM | #24 |
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I thought you went to bed HOURS ago, or I'd have called you with my two cents...............
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12-21-11, 04:12 AM | #25 |
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Boy I never knew how bad I missed Paul Harveys broadcasts till I read this,to bad being written cant put in his dramatic pauses and quirky intonations.
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