Oil Leak

[jasonfish320]

I am not sure if anyone has brought up the topic of the big leak in Gulf yet, but I was thinking about the government's role in all of this earlier today. It seems to me that if they are the ones who control leasing the territory than they should definitely take some responsibility. However, it's not like this is their fault either...SHT HAPPENS! You think you have all the safety measures in place and boom..this happens.

Here's my thought: Recently the feds cut back a lot of their funding to NASA..so now you've got the smartest guys (probably in the world) sitting on the sidelines twiddling their thumbs. Sorry but if I was the prez in this position I would have had those boys on the phone pronto to come up with a solution for this plug. I guarantee that the first solution out of NASA would have plugged the well...these guys have no room for error..

It's a shame what is going to happen to the evironment in that area of the Gulf. As if the people in that area haven't suffered enough..

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by jasonfish320

. However, it's not like this is their fault either...SHT HAPPENS!

Jason, you touch on the central issue here. Politicians are simply never allowed to say "sht happens". It's political suicide, because society is so trained in kneejerk reactions, and the delusion that everything is always somebody's fault, and something has to be done about it, and they took eer jubs.....you get the point.

Sometimes I feel like I'm one of about 5 people who grasp and accept the cold, hard realities of a mortal existence in an imperfect world. The rest stand around screaming and whining.

[WTL]

Sht does happen. I don't think this should be made into a political issue right now. Its like Katrina. The federal government is bulky and impotent, I might be one of the few who understands this in the way that I think I am willing to give them a pass cause I just dont expect much.

I also think the boys at NASA would be no better than you or me or your average shade tree mechanic. The idea of shooting mud down in the hole and then concreting over...well that idea on its face is not complicated. It is happening to your kitchen sink every time you try to empty that half can of chilly down the drain. Not complicated. I could have suggested it, in fact I was thinking it in a clumsy way.

Then again the specifics of such an operation call for a level of specialized engineering and scientific experience, and the average rocket scientist, nobel poet/philosphoper or politician, even if they are brilliant, arent likely to be technically exercised in the areas this requires.

[CMorg]

Originally Posted by WTL

Sht does happen. I don't think this should be made into a political issue right now. Its like Katrina. The federal government is bulky and impotent, I might be one of the few who understands this in the way that I think I am willing to give them a pass cause I just dont expect much.

I also think the boys at NASA would be no better than you or me or your average shade tree mechanic. The idea of shooting mud down in the hole and then concreting over...well that idea on its face is not complicated. It is happening to your kitchen sink every time you try to empty that half can of chilly down the drain. Not complicated. I could have suggested it, in fact I was thinking it in a clumsy way.

Then again the specifics of such an operation call for a level of specialized engineering and scientific experience, and the average rocket scientist, nobel poet/philosphoper or politician, even if they are brilliant, arent likely to be technically exercised in the areas this requires.

I think some of my swimbaits are bulky and impotent as well...

[MallenManson]

Originally Posted by WTL

Sht does happen. I don't think this should be made into a political issue right now. Its like Katrina. The federal government is bulky and impotent, I might be one of the few who understands this in the way that I think I am willing to give them a pass cause I just dont expect much.

I also think the boys at NASA would be no better than you or me or your average shade tree mechanic. The idea of shooting mud down in the hole and then concreting over...well that idea on its face is not complicated. It is happening to your kitchen sink every time you try to empty that half can of chilly down the drain. Not complicated. I could have suggested it, in fact I was thinking it in a clumsy way.

Then again the specifics of such an operation call for a level of specialized engineering and scientific experience, and the average rocket scientist, nobel poet/philosphoper or politician, even if they are brilliant, arent likely to be technically exercised in the areas this requires.

Rice works even better

[Bassboss]

IMO it is somewhat political. If Dick never allowed the oil companies to make the fail safe non-mandatory, it never would have happened. True, it so political weather it was on there or not, but if it was on there, chances are we would not be having this discussion.

But as much as it hurts to say, I think this could be a good thing in the long run in one way. It might help people pull there heads out the a$ses and stop relying on unsafe fossil fuels. We've got what we need, lets fuggin do it all ready, lets for once not let greed get in the way of what's right!!!!!!

[MIbasser]

Originally Posted by Bassboss

IMO it is somewhat political. If Dick never allowed the oil companies to make the fail safe non-mandatory, it never would have happened. True, it so political weather it was on there or not, but if it was on there, chances are we would not be having this discussion.

But as much as it hurts to say, I think this could be a good thing in the long run in one way. It might help people pull there heads out the a$ses and stop relying on unsafe fossil fuels. We've got what we need, lets fuggin do it all ready, lets for once not let greed get in the way of what's right!!!!!!

I heard and I could have heard wrong, but it did have a fail safe on it. However it was an electrical one not a mechanical one and that the batteries had died on it.

[TN_Bassin]

Originally Posted by MIbasser

I heard and I could have heard wrong, but it did have a fail safe on it. However it was an electrical one not a mechanical one and that the batteries had died on it.

Actually instead of BP spending the extra 100k to put the failsafe in, we are having to deal with the spill now. Hindsight's 20/20 i guess.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by MIbasser

I heard and I could have heard wrong, but it did have a fail safe on it. However it was an electrical one not a mechanical one and that the batteries had died on it.

By the way....as a guy who specifies "failsafe" devices (not drilling gear, obviously) you have to understand the terminology.

There is "fail-safe", whereupon, if something fails, things proceed to a safe condition. In this instance, if batteries were to die, the blowout preventer would close, and shut the well down.

Then there is "fail-secure", whereupon, if the batteries were to die, the blowout prevention function of the preventer would just stop working, and the well would keep flowing. We'll have to ask Garey, but I don't think a device like this actually exists. There appears to be no reason you would want this to occur.

So in essence, I don't think there could have been a "battery powered fail-safe" blowout preventer for this application. If there was, it would have worked. I would think it would be a mechanical device. Either that, or their wording is really screwed up. Garey?

[WTL]

Originally Posted by Bassboss

We've got what we need

I have no clue what you are referring to.

If its an alternative to fossil fuels that you are referring to, we most certainly, emphatically do not.

[nofearengineer]

Cummon, WTL...you know the world runs on good intentions and fairy dust.

Hilarious. I would blame it on age, but I'm sure the older version feels the same way.

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by WTL

I have no clue what you are referring to.

If its an alternative to fossil fuels that you are referring to, we most certainly, emphatically do not.

Of course we do! It just cost way too much to impliment and only works if the wind is blowing and the sun is shining. And nobody who says we should use it is willing to have to look at the ugly contraptions needed to create the energy.

[Bubba_Bruiser]

I have heard 2 different stories from people that worked with some of the men on the Horizon. And they both make good sense.
1) They had previous problems from the well giving them hydrocarbons back and it was freezing the subsea equipment days before this happened. They had ROVs down at the stack spraying it to melt the ice because they were having trouble functioning some items on the BOP stack (Blow Out Preventer). This would make sense in the fact that if you have ever seen a well flow for production, it will make a 3" line look like a 6" with the ice coating. The well basically unloaded a 6000' column of water in seconds and the gas was full blown. This could have led to a failure due to everything freezing. Any stack I have ever seen has worked mechanically by hydraulic fluid or a like fluid pressured to operate the equipment. I have never seen an electric function on them. These items are usually kept under a constant pressure to hold equipment opened or closed. If there is any kind of interruption in the pressure, the item will close or open, whatever its purpose is. Not to say that electrical equipment doesn't exist, but I haven't seen it in 13 years.
2) They were at the tail end of the well and rigged down some of the items to save some time. Maybe some of the wrong lines were disconnected. I really don't believe this one because the BOPs is the most critical equipment on the rig as far a separation from the well. And if they did, then shame on Transocean for letting BP persuade them to do it. BP is the decision maker, TO just carries out the orders. But then again, they did get there posi/neg test on the well and thought all was good, so it can't be ruled out.
But everyone has there opinion, but many coming from the media don't mean squat. I wouldn't enter NFE's territory and try to explain engineering or WTL's once he finishes his quest for the law. A lot of these people in the media would be better off explaining how a dog barks than what they are talking about on the drilling industry.

[66KingFisher]

Originally Posted by Bubba_Bruiser

A lot of these people in the media would be better off explaining how a dog barks than what they are talking about on the drilling industry.

Hahaha....I'll bet thats right.

[texasbasser]

Any news on Top Kill?

TB

[Stew]

Originally Posted by jasonfish320

I am not sure if anyone has brought up the topic of the big leak in Gulf yet, but I was thinking about the government's role in all of this earlier today. It seems to me that if they are the ones who control leasing the territory than they should definitely take some responsibility. However, it's not like this is their fault either...SHT HAPPENS! You think you have all the safety measures in place and boom..this happens.

Here's my thought: Recently the feds cut back a lot of their funding to NASA..so now you've got the smartest guys (probably in the world) sitting on the sidelines twiddling their thumbs. Sorry but if I was the prez in this position I would have had those boys on the phone pronto to come up with a solution for this plug. I guarantee that the first solution out of NASA would have plugged the well...these guys have no room for error.

It's a shame what is going to happen to the environment in that area of the Gulf. As if the people in that area haven't suffered enough..

We have to understand some of this in context of the law as it developed historically in relation to oil spills.

Prior the Exxon Valdez spill, the onus of the cleanup burden fell upon the federal government. As a way of making the companies responsible to avoid having to pay billions for cleanup, Congress changed that in law after the Exxon Valdez. Now, it is the companies who are LEGALLY responsible for their own cleanups, not the government. So the law right now actually ties the federal government's hands. They by law can't just go in and take over and be the lead authority in a cleanup. I imagine this would feel extremely frustrating for whatever presidential administration would be in office right now: the government is ultimately deemed responsible in the eyes of the public but Congress has said that it is the legal responsibility of the companies. It's a no win scenario if the private company turns out to be inept.

Also, during the George W. Bush administration, the feds were commanded to deregulate the oil industry. This is what we've inherited in the right here and now.

Norway and Canada serve as excellent models of tight regulation of oil. If we had not deregulated under Bush but had followed their model, this Gulf disaster would have been a mere blip on our television screen for one day, because there would have been only a minor spill for a few hours. Government exist for a reason and its not to be so small it's inept.

So really, the best discussion to have is how do we as a country learn from this. I think we need to inaugurate a huge shift in energy toward cleaner technologies, even if it means dumping many billions of taxpayer money into the country to do it. We'll all be better for it in the long run. MUCH better.

[WTL]

Let me reread your post and I will find some more fallacies of logic and get back to you....but right quick, let me be clear....


THE ECONOMY OF THE WORLD COLLAPSING IS A BIG DEAL...


not a small detail.

[Jim80]

Originally Posted by WTL

Let me reread your post and I will find some more fallacies of logic and get back to you....but right quick, let me be clear....


THE ECONOMY OF THE WORLD COLLAPSING IS A BIG DEAL...


not a small detail.

I have to say I knew that was coming and could not have said it better myself



Jim

[TN_Bassin]

I'm sensing some seriously good chatroom chat if both parties would like to debate it out. lol.

[TN_Bassin]

No matter what happens, I believe......... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIWb8HJ5gLo

Still though.. I would love to see this continued in the chat room... I'll bring the popcorn for the spectators.

[1/4 stick]

I just want to know, and I admit to lacking knowledge of the current technology, but.... where nuclear energy is conserned, what are we gonna do with the radio-active waste? And how are we gonna handle the clean up when one of the plants has a melt down? My honest opinion is it's no better of an answer than what we already have.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by 1/4 stick

I just want to know, and I admit to lacking knowledge of the current technology, but.... where nuclear energy is conserned, what are we gonna do with the radio-active waste? And how are we gonna handle the clean up when one of the plants has a melt down? My honest opinion is it's no better of an answer than what we already have.

Right. People who are all gung-ho for nuclear energy suddenly become quiet when you ask them to also commit to store the waste in or near their home town. They get the "NIMBYS", the Not In My Backyard Syndrome.

[nofearengineer]

And they also catch NIMBY syndrome when it comes to solar and wind.

Ted Kennedy, the so-called "lion of the senate" roared the loudest when they wanted to put a wind farm off the coast of his family's "compound" in Massachusetts. It took his death to make it possible.

Land-based wind farms get protested because the greenies actually believe millions of birds die by flying into the guy wires bracing the towers.

Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi raised a big stink when a solar power installation was planned in the Mojave Desert, one of the sunniest places on Earth, because the tortoises living there might not like the shade.

These people actually think they can have it both ways.

It seems those who really hate the internal combustion engine offer only criticism of it, but resist any good solution.

They also love conspiracy theories of the oil companies quashing new technology; i.e, the famous "100 mpg carburetor". This boogeyman is offered up to a mystified populace, who in their desire to just see something done, will believe almost anything.

Why is it these conspiracy nuts will believe the oil companies are all about their bottom line (and they are...all successful businesses should be), yet refuse to accept that these new technologies, if real, would make the oil companies more money than they do on oil?

If they don't, they will just be more expensive to you, the customer...and then the complaining would start anew. I hear it every single time the price of gas climbs another ten cents per gallon.

Oil...can't get it cheap enough...can't deregulate it. Take your pick, geniuses. Either that, or you better get used to global poverty, pandemics, and famines. Every one of us ought to be thankful for the oil companies. Otherwise, we'd still be living life "Little House on the Prairie" style.

[Stew]

Yes, the NIMBYs have been known to infect many people on many things. It afflicts both the tall and small. Unlike other infections, it's mostly likely to infect in a small crowd, where inadequate numbers of stakeholders are hammering things out.

So help me out here.

I've driven through Iowa, and actually made it all the way through alive.

I did not die from boredom of scenery.

Corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn corn.

I fail to see how replacing some of those corn farms with wind farms can be a bad thing.

And we don't need to make eye sores, like off the Mass sound. I fail to see how it is that most states can all find suitable places.

Here in Florida, we don't want them icking up the sights at our tourist beaches, but in Belle Glade, the entire enormous town used to be devoted to sugar cane. Now the state owns all that land. Parts would be p-e-e-e-e-e-rfect for wind farms, and the people would like the jobs.

If the feds seeded a little block grant money to states to develop areas for wind farms, you'd see them hammer it all out and find places, I think. The NIMBYs would not infect.

[1/4 stick]

Oh yes. Let us put more farmers out on the streets. We do love to take land from farmers and indians don't we? Guess we could lease the land from the farmers, but given what the government pays people for such deals it's the same as putting them in the streets. And then food prices skyrocket caused by less corn being available. Sounds like a plan to me.